Time to go back to the vet?

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Time to go back to the vet?

Post by Mouse friend on Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:52 am

Hello I'm new to forums so please forgive me if I make mistakes with posting etc. I have a question I was hoping to get advice on. One of my little girls was treated for a suspected upper respirattory infection twice daisy for two weeks with Baytril. After the two weeks I have monitored her for a further two weeks as the medication process was so stressful for her and seems to have stunted her growth. I thought she had improved and have been monitoring her closely to ensure she is eating, drinking, grooming,excercising and socialising and she is quieter than my other two but still going about mice business. However she is still sneezing and her sister has begun sneezing also. Her sister shows no other signs of ill health and both mice concerned have shiny coats, bright eyes and are clean and alert. My poorly girl seems to be coming back out of her shell and her sister hasn't changed her behaviour and their other sister seems fine. I want to do the best for my girls. Am I doing the right thing continuing to monitor for changes or should I be returning to the vet straight away? My concern is that as Upper Respiratory Tract Infections can be triggered by stress; is taking them back to the vet if unnecessery going to make things worse?

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by CallaLily on Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:45 am

I don't really have much experience with respiratory infections. Keeping that in mind I feel like monitoring them has been the right thing in this case. Back to back rounds of antibiotics can be hard on a mouse's little body, so I'm not sure another vet trip would help right now anyway. I know my vet always insisted on spacing them out some when Daryl had his ongoing eye irritation/infection. He said back to back antibiotics can cause more harm than help.

Also, if their only symptom is sneezing, is it possible it's something else like an allergy? What type of bedding are you using? Some mice do develop allergies to wood. If you are using wood based bedding or have a lot of wooden toys or just a very dusty bedding, you may want to try something else for a while to see if it helps. How long have you had these mice? Definitely continue keeping a close watch on them just in case another vet trip is needed.

Someone with more URI experience may chime in with better advice. Smile

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by Mouse friend on Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:32 am

Thank you so much for taking the time to read my post I really appreciate it:) I have booked in to see the vet this evening as it's been 2 weeks on then 2 weeks off antibiotics( but a different one to last time whose their resident small furry expert) I've been advised by a contact at a rescues centre to ask about septrin if she does require another dose of antibiotics and also to ask about F10 for setting up an oxygen tank to help ease congestion so I'm going to ask about both of these but it's been such a help to read your post as I have been concerned about antibiotic use and whether it's actually an allergy. I use back2nature substrate. I don't know if you guys have it in the states? It's recycled cardboard pellets- dust extracted and was what my girls were brought up on. I use recycled chlorine free kitchen roll shredded for nesting and small amounts of feed quality small animal hay with camomile in the cage for nibbling and burrowing. However I do use a lot of wooden toys. I'm sorry to hear about your little boys eye trouble I hope things are getting better for him?

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by scaredymouse on Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:23 pm

let us know how it goes at the vet!  Hope everyone feels better Smile

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by Mouse friend on Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:57 pm

Hello Callalilly and Scaredymouse the vets appointment went well. All 3 girls are good weights.. ( must get my own scales).. and are not in respiratory distress. I was also concerned that Annabelle would remember the trauma of their last visit and be upset ( the previous vet I saw caught Annabelle by the middle of her tail once! and clearly wasn't used to handling mice - Poor Annabelle I just hope he didn't damage her tail!) but all 3 seemed interested more than anything and behaved very well. Needless to say the dried mealworms appeared when we got home!! The vet agreed it could be allergy related and the plan is to remove all wooden toys and halt treats and call the vet back in a weeks time with an update. We also discussed getting them into mashed banana in case they need to be medicated again so that I can hide medication in it. I am wondering if the problem was caused by sunflower seeds. I was giving them organic human grade sunflower seeds as treats whilst we bond. I checked with 2 people more experienced than me that these would be suitable and checked numerous sources but its only been reading posts on here that I've discovered they can cause allergies so I've cut those out ( much to the trios disappointment) and am gradually taking out their wooden toys. I've also been thinking about anything else that they could be reacting to.

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by CallaLily on Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:07 pm

I hope you figure it out. I could be wrong, but I think food allergies tend to be more hot spots and scratching than sneezing. But it certainly doesn't hurt to try ruling those out. Could be the hay and/or chamomile. Try leaving those out next clean.

Thank you for asking about Daryl. Sadly he passed away in Dec 2015 at 15 months old.  He was an awesome little mousey. I still miss the little guy.

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by Mouse friend on Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:43 pm

Oh I'm sorry RIP Daryl, I'm so sorry I didn't realise. My friends little one passed a couple of weeks ago. Only the second mouse I ever met and such a lovely boy he is greatly missed by mum and auntie:(

I have stopped the hay and camomile like you suggested. I read about camomile. It's so frustratingly difficult to source truly safe and suitable supplies. The hay I was getting is labelled as " suitable for all small animals" other hays by the same company are labelled with the species they're suited for so I thought this would be suitable. I know there's always the parasite risk but my girls Love their hay and I thought the camomile it's mixed with would be an extra treat but I guess not. Still all worth it to get to the bottom of the sneezing and any excuse to get them some more toys I'll take!


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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by peas on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:28 pm


Hi, so what is going on now?

Are they sneezing or is it more a clicking sound? When they sneeze is it a full body thing? Does it look like they are gasping for air?

How has removing stuff gone?


I always make sure i get doxycycline with my baytril as i have had mice not respond to baytril but respond to doxycycline.

The only time i ever had a problem with what i would call sneezing is with dust from toilet paper.

If they do go back to the vet for more antibiotics, i would suggest making sure you get doxycycline to go with the baytril.

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by Mouse friend on Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:52 am

Hi peas it's not like gasping for air. With Heidi it is just sneezing - not a whole body thing. With Annabelle it is more pronounced like if she's sitting on her back feet and has a sneezing fit it does make her move. That's not a great way to describe it I guess yes it is more of a full body thing. As for the clicking, sometimes when she sneezes it's more throaty like a human with a bad cough if that makes sense? So maybe that is the clicking sound you mention. Maybe I should try and post a video of her this evening...

I've been removing the wooden toys gradually as I haven't wanted to stress them out with lots of change all at once and have been trying to find alternative toys.

Here is a list of everything I am considering as a possible cause or allergy:

Wood in all forms including wooden shelf in their cage and pop sticks
Sunflower seeds
Supreme selective pellets (I gradually added these to their diet shortly after bringing them home)
Johnsons Clean and Safe for small animals - this is the cleaner I have been using on their wheels and cage tray. I always rinsed very thoroughly to prevent any residue or smell but I'm still concerned in case.
Kitchen roll ( paper towels) the brand I buy are recycled and chlorine free and not dusty when I shred for them but still.
Back2nature substrate - I bought this from their breeder. It's recycled cardboard pellets. I was told this would be better than carefresh
Woodlands Grain-free wild seed and thistle flower stick
Dust in room- as they live in a cage on the floor not a tank, I've been wondering if being on the floor is affecting them


Thank you for the tip about doxycycline. The girls ( touch wood) show no other symptoms other than Annabelle being the quieter of the three but all three are eating, drinking, grooming, socialising, using their wheels, burrowing, climbing and going about mice business but obviously I am still constantly worrying about them and what I might be doing wrong:(

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by peas on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:41 am

Mice can appear to be perfectly fine and still be ill, very ill.    I think lethargy is another indicator of a mouse's health that  should be  looked out for.    

My mouse Wormy was doing all the normal mousey stuff right up until the end.  She looked great, was sparking and running on her wheel and eating and drinking, the only difference was she was sleeping a lot more.   I just assumed she was more active at night or just depressed or something until she developed full blown pneumonia and died shortly after.    I gave her baytril but it was too late.  

My current mouse was just on baytril and not getting better.  I then added doxy and she's doing good.  The doxy cleared up whatever she had that the baytril was not getting.  


Your mice may be fine and it's just some sneezing.   That might be the most likely, as baytril is quite effective and works in most cases to clear up URIs.     However, unfortunately,  just because a mouse is eating and drinking and seems to be normal another important indicator is a mouse sleeping too often.    Which is hard to gauge of course because they do sleep a lot.  And some more than others.  

I have found keeping track of how much poo is in a wheel works generally, for runners.  But that is harder when they are sharing a cage.  Also some mice keep cleaner wheels than others.

 I would assume if they aren't sleeping more than usual, that they are fine and you just need to hunt down the sneezy stuff.    

 
 Sometimes you can do everything right and not get the results you want.   It's tempting to worry but in the end worrying doesn't help anyone and all you can really do is just enjoy their company and make sure their little lives are fun.    
 
I've had mice awhile now, and have been through a lot of ups and downs and you learn as you go. It's tough but it's also awesome. All you can do is just do your best and hope to make the best decisions for them but part of that is also taking care to actually enjoy having them and not to worry too much. I think a lot of people find that mice get sick too often or die too often and it can be hard to keep going through their short little fragile lives. Part of being a good mousie owner, i think, is learning to deal with that aspect of having mice that way you will be emotionally capable of continuing to stay a mousie owner for the long haul, giving many mice a good home whether they have short lives or long ones, making sure they always have happy ones.


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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by Mouse friend on Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:31 pm

Thanks peas that's all really helpful and I really appreciate it. Im aware like you say that mice can appear fine and really be at deaths door and I think this is why as a new guardian I'm so anxious. But I take your point about enjoying them not just worrying about them. Especially as anxiety causes us to release stress hormones which other animals can smell and to take to mean there's danger around which in turn causes further stress to them!

I am buying and making all new toys tomorrow to do a brand new setup:) (without using any possible allergens and obviously safe, non- toxic materials - I've been doing a lot of research) One thing I'm concerned about now is whether their wooden toys are just too old. Anything that stinks I've chucked away as I've gone along but some toys they've had since I got them and haven't been cleaned or boiled so I'm wondering if that's where I may have gone wrong:( but I smell everything regularly -(which may make me very odd lol) and it's a balance with mice isn't it to make sure their environment is clean but smells familiar?

Anyway I continue to monitor and try to make sure they are happy and know they are loved. Thank you for taking the time to read my posts and your supportive advice.




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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by peas on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:03 pm

I just use popsicle sticks, felt, toilet paper and carboard or glass for everything in the tank.

Aside from the wheels.     Hemp rope works good and some sort of nylon thread for sewing, i can't remember there is a certain type that is safer for them but i don't remember what it is called exactly.

I don't really give them any wood stuff that i am not planning on throwing out in a month.   I don't like wood cause it is porous.   There is this cute little thing at wal-mart made out of wood for hamsters but i would throw it out after a month and i have a feeling my mouse wouldn't use it anyways.    A lot of people have more interesting stuff in their tanks than me and their mice seem fine so i guess it's a personal preference thing.

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by Mouse friend on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:15 pm

I'm planning on only doing non sew fleece or felt hammocks and ropes, non- toxic plastic, pop sticks and cardboard. I'm struggling to find hemp for hanging things from which is annoying because my girls like climbing second only to building nests and eating.

I originally went with wood so they could chew on it safely and it's easy for them to cling onto for climbing. I was scared to use any cardboard except kitchen paper rolls because of inks and glues but I guess as long as I use common sense it'll be fine. I also didn't want to use plastic ( apart from their wheels) but they don't seem to chew plastic although Olivia likes to move the flying saucer around. I guess ceramic is the best because it's so durable and washable and doesn't deteriorate like plastic. Ive got a tea light holder and am looking out for more like it as the one I have doesn't have a back so it can triple as a hide, tunnel and lookout or food bowl

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by peas on Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:32 pm

I cut the felt into strips and use that as rope.    You can either tie it or you can glue it.  

Costco is where i get my cardboard.  I make sure to use ones that aren't used for food, , they have little carboard backings on their pallets that i snag a ton of when i am there.

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Re: Time to go back to the vet?

Post by Mouse friend on Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:04 am

That sounds great:) I'm in the uk so trying to think of a good place to go for cardboard. I thought I'd ask at my local cafe for cup holders. I got some disposable card cups and plates at the supermarket yesterday and I still have the box my toaster came in which has a great piece of cardboard in so that's a start.

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