Okay. Need Some Advice.

by CinnamonPearl Thu 18 Jan 2018, 12:04 pm

So the antibiotics unfortunately didn't affect Shelly's lump at all. At her recheck the other day, we got a sample from her lump, and her doctor sent it to the lab to find out what it is. At this point it's probably a tumor, but we don't know yet whether it's benign or malignant. But the thing is, her vet is was very eager about doing surgery and removing the lump. The surgeon would be the second exotics vet at the hospital, and he's apparently very experienced with doing surgery on any sort of small animal, including mice. Obviously I would want to talk to the surgeon and discuss the pros and cons and survival rates of doing such a surgery. Mainly right now, I'm waiting to see if the results say her lump is benign or malignant. If it's malignant, then I'll let it be and just make her comfortable for as long as possible, but if it's benign, and the surgery looks like it could have a good outcome, would it be worth it to take the chance and see if we can save her?

This is my thought process. If we don't remove the lump, her days are numbered either way. There's no escaping it. So with a benign tumor, which can be removed permanently, would it be worth it to take a chance to save her life? Would it not? I know there's a big stigma against putting mice through surgery, but this is a stigma that came from TFM, and all the TFM information was decided over a decade ago. It could be possible that mouse surgery has gotten a lot better without us noticing, right? Since a lot of people outside this community neuter their males regularly?

I won't be able to make a decision until we get the results back, and until I've spoken with the surgeon. But I really need all your advice now. What do you think is the best thing to do?

by Chinchillasxoxo Thu 18 Jan 2018, 12:21 pm

It sounds like you are very attached to her and want the very best for her. Surgery most probably has improved with all the new technology. How old is she? If she is getting older then the surgery could be quite hard on her. But if she is very special to you then I say go for the surgery if it is benign. Definitely talk to the surgeon first as he might have some concerns but if he believes she can make it and you are willing to pay (you are probably aware that it is going to be pricey) then I say give her a chance. Hope this helps and tell her to get better from me!
Chinsxoxo

by CinnamonPearl Thu 18 Jan 2018, 12:29 pm

She's a year and three months. So not exactly young, but not exactly old either. Shelly's doctor did say that the tumor should come out easy cause most of it is attached to the skin and very movable, not deeply rooted in the body. And yeah, it will be pricey. The surgery will be about $200, which is definitely tough cause her initial appointment was $85, and then the sample test was $215. So it'll be pretty much $500 total that this lump will cost me. It would be easier if my job wasn't giving me so few hours at the moment, I'll have to work a lot next month to compensate. But I am willing to pay if I think it can save her life. Shelly is priceless!

by Chinchillasxoxo Thu 18 Jan 2018, 12:34 pm

That sounds like it shouldn't be too difficult to remove then if it's benign Smile

Hope she get's better and please keep me updated!

by Peachy Thu 18 Jan 2018, 2:10 pm

I don't know how often people find vets that are well practiced in this type of thing, which is maybe why it was less recommended then than it is now... at least in the US. I've just recently begun seriously discussing both tumor removal and neutering with my new(ish) vet. It took me 8 years to find her! It had come up before but there was no need then. Now I've got two new baby boy mice and a desire to not waste my life cleaning cages. Funny timing. Smile

I do remember following a mouse on TFM that had the surgery to remove a tumor and recovered well. I think, given a competent vet and a young, otherwise healthy mouse, I'd go the same route as you're planning. If the outcome is good, it'll be a learning opportunity for all of us!

by CallaLily Thu 18 Jan 2018, 2:47 pm

I've been kind of torn on this topic as well. I have seen in other mouse groups people with access to very experienced exotic vets having tumors removed from mice and they seem to recover well. But it also seems to me that many of these mice end up having new tumors pop up again just a few months later. So is it worth it, putting them through all that? I just don't know. What are the chances of regrowth? Confused

Please keep us in the loop. I'm interested in what your new vet has to say and how things turn out should you decide to go ahead with the surgery.

by CinnamonPearl Thu 18 Jan 2018, 2:50 pm

Dang, Peachy, yeah. If I was in your situation with an unexpected litter, I'd probably look into neutering too.

Shelly is very healthy and spry, yeah. She's still full of energy! I feel like there's a good chance she'd be able to recover from a surgery. I mainly just don't want her to whither away and die if she doesn't have to. The tumor might be malignant, I have to remember that. But if it's benign.... I suppose I don't see a reason why i shouldn't at least try the surgery. If it doesn't go alright, well, I suppose the outcome would have been the same anyway.

Ohp, quick edit since Calla just shared her thoughts! Yeah, the potential for regrowth is why I want to know if it's malignant. If it is, then no point, it'll just come back. Once the vet phones me with the results, I'll ask her what the potential for regrowth is, and I'll have to talk to the surgeon as well. But regardless, I am her owner. If there's a chance of permanent recovery, is it not my responsibility to make sure that she has the longest, healthiest life she could have? No matter the price?

by CallaLily Thu 18 Jan 2018, 3:06 pm

Money isn't my worry at all. I only question if it's worth putting the mouse through the pain/trauma if chance of regrowth just a few months later is high. Edit: or is that what you meant by price?

by MerciToujoursMaPetiteBoop Thu 18 Jan 2018, 3:24 pm

Please pardon me if I sound a little ranty today. I guess I just aspire to be a crusader for tiny animal health care.

It is ironic and sad for mouse (and other small rodent) owners, when it comes to the need for veterinary surgery. On one side of the irony, the lab research world is full of people who are competent to perform all kinds of surgical procedures (some quite horrifying, if you ask me) on our little friends, yet they are not able to work on our pets because they are not veterinarians. On the other side of the irony, there are ridiculously few veterinary schools in the world -- a significant number of their graduates move into zoo and farm animal specialties, and of the ones who decide to pursue a career in pet medicine, their focus (understandably) is on canine/feline work.

Then factor in how difficult surgery and recovery can be on a mouse -- a mouse that in many cases is only seeing a vet for the first time when something is seriously wrong, unlike, say, a dog that has been seeing the vet regularly since it was a puppy, building up personal equity with the doctor(s) and staff one visit at a time, growing up big and strong, and then eventually needs more serious medical attention in its eighth or ninth year.

The only practical way I have been able to think of to tip more pocket pet specialists out of these schools is for those of us who live close enough to a veterinary school that has a clinic/hospital service open to the public to take our business to them. Talk to the doctors and veterinary students there during your visit. Show them the great interest we take in our little loves, how concerned we are that they get good medical attention when they need it ... how in some ways we might actually be more knowledgeable than they are about this stuff! Make them see that there is demand out in the "real world" for this kind of veterinary care, and (I hope) make them learn to love serving our little underserved rodent friends.

REVOLUTION!

Off the rant now, as long as you have a doctor that you believe is comfortable with performing mouse surgery, you have accomplished A LOT toward putting little Shelly on the road to Wellville. After you know the test results, you will probably have a much clearer idea of what to do next, especially since you have already thought this out quite a bit.

>little mousie kiss for Shelly<

by CinnamonPearl Thu 18 Jan 2018, 5:45 pm

Hmm, I don't think she'll be that traumatized. After all, she'll be asleep for most of the procedure, and if it's a matter of getting traumatized from being handled by the vets, I do give her checkups weekly, so she's used to being poked and prodded when she doesn't wanna be. Pain is something I worry about, but.... Pain for a few days after the procedure would probably be worth living another year, right? I could also ask the vet for medicam.

by CallaLily Thu 18 Jan 2018, 7:46 pm

That's why I'm not sure. If she lived another year, a few days of (managed) pain would probably be worth it, I would think. But if another tumor pops up a few months later, is it? I'm just thinking out loud. Not trying to talk you out of it or anything because I honestly don't know.

by CinnamonPearl Thu 18 Jan 2018, 8:00 pm

I suppose it would depend on how long she could last with this tumor. It's somewhat large, not massive but large, and it's on her hind leg, so if left unchecked, it will probably impair her ability to walk once it starts growing more. She couldn't last very long like that, I would have to euthanize her. So a few more months of living and being able to walk and run on the wheel would probably be worth it, right? Especially since those few months may seem short to us but are really long for them.

by CallaLily Thu 18 Jan 2018, 8:09 pm

That's where I'm just not sure. But, with help from your vet, I know whatever decision you make for Shelly will be the right one. Good vibes

by CinnamonPearl Thu 18 Jan 2018, 9:24 pm

Okay, so I suppose the conversation is pretty stagnant until I get the results back from the vet and have the discussion with the surgeon. But thank you so much for helping me think this through, guys. I'll keep you posted.

by violetindigo Fri 19 Jan 2018, 9:18 am

well, you can't take it with you. in other words, if you have the extra money and want to spend it on the little critter, do as you wish.

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