Looking for answers abroad

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Looking for answers abroad

Post by Laluna on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 1:16 pm



Hi there,

I am Laluna from the Netherlands and i am desperately looking for good information about mice. My English is not perfect, so sorry in advance for mistakes. Please let me know if i am not clear.
I have actually 4 groups of mice for a few months now. I absolutely love them but i have underestimated the problems with mice that could occure. One of the problems is: the 4 groups suppose to be 1, so i need to learn a lot about introducing mice to eachother and how to deal with bullying and dominant types. I also experience health problems with my mice. so i have many questions and few answers from dutch vets and breeders.
I have being reading on this forum and yet i have learned a lot. But still enough questions left.



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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by CallaLily on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 2:17 pm

Welcome to the forum!

How many mice are you attempting to introduce? In what size enclosure? Often it’s found that introducing and allowing them to bond for at least a few weeks in the minimum space recommended for the group goes better than their nice larger permanent home. Also be sure that everything is clean or new - free of any mouse’s individual smell - so there’s no claim to anything. It can also help to start them off with the bare minimum supplies - water bottle, food, bedding, a hide - and then slowly add in toys and their wheel one at a time as they get along.

There’s an article here about introductions with more information: https://www.petmousefanciers.com/t19-keeping-mice-together-introducing-them.

What type of health problems have you been having? None of our members are veterinarians but we can try our best to offer help where we can.

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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by Laluna on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 3:12 pm

Hi, wow thanks for the information! Now i understand why everything went well in the smaller tank and when i moved them to the bigger tank: a real bloody war began!
I was attempting to introduce 13 mice, (actually 1 unstabel group of 9 young mice and 1 group of stabil adult mice 3-6 months) first in a tank 90x45x60 cm with all new stuff and after a week they looked stabil and i moved them to the main tank 160x45x70 cm (two departments) with a lot of used (though cleaned properly) stuff and indeed they began to fight and bullying non stop. Especially some of the young ones where troublemakers and 4 other mice ( the youngest and 3 adults) where being bullied all the time. It went from the evening till the next day late in the morning. I heard peep noises constantely. I removed 3 big bullies and when i did so, they where replaced by the other young ones so the same problems kept going. Then i moved them to the 90 cm tank again and they finally are stabilized but i want 3 bullies and even 2 other primer bullies living in that group as well, but the introduction causes to much stress. I will read that information, thank you very much! About the health problems: i will post about it one by one. So i can explain the situation properly.
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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by Laluna on Tue 11 Sep 2018, 7:23 am

Sorry, i didn’t realise the mean measurement of this forum must be in inches.
My biggest tank: length: 61 inch wide: 18 inch highy: 28 inch. There’s a second floor also length: 61 inch and wide 10 inch
I have no idea how to calculate how many gallon this could be? Does anybody know this?
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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by CallaLily on Tue 11 Sep 2018, 7:35 am

I would try them again in the smaller tank and give them more time to bond there, before moving them to their larger permanent home. As with any introductions, there is a chance that it will never work out, but it’s certainly worth trying. Only worry if there’s blood being drawn. Squeaking, chasing, mounting, sniffing are all normal and necessary for them to establish who’s who in the group dynamics. You may find they’ll go through a bit of that again upon being moved to their permanent setup, but hopefully they’ll be better bonded by then and it’ll go more smoothly. Larger groups like this can be more difficult to bond, which is why this forum generally recommends smaller colonies, especially if one is new to mouse keeping. But I’ve seen plenty of more experienced mouse parents pull larger groups off, so it’s not impossible. I hope it works out. Good luck. Smile

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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by Laluna on Tue 11 Sep 2018, 9:35 am

Hi Callalily, thanks again! Yeah, before i discovered this forum i did’t even know that a large group is much more difficult to introduce. Though i did experience this, but wasn’t sure about the reason. I also suspect the larger tank wasn’t doing any good but i found only information that said the opposite: femaile mice need as much space as possible when introduce to eachother, and never read anything about the difficultness of big groups. So i never introduced them properly, because the lack of information. So it’s indeed worth to try it again on the right way. Actually the group of 10 mice are doing great together now and i know now this is allready a good result (because 10 is still a large group. I want to introduce 5 more to this group and if its not working after all, i’ll keep them in two different groups.
I have 1 question about what’s normal during the introduction: i understand if they have a bloody fight it’s not good and they need to be seperate from eachother. What about bullying? If there are no fights but one or more are being bullied all the time? Is this something to accept or is it also a reason to intervene?
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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by CallaLily on Tue 11 Sep 2018, 12:50 pm

If a mouse is being so bullied that they’re unable to eat or drink enough, that is definitely something to be concerned over. If she is so beaten and bullied that she’s miserable and stressed, not eating well, losing weight, not enjoying life, etc — I would intervene.

But if it’s just some chasing, squeaking, and minor tiffs. If she’s still eating well and playing and generally seems to still enjoy things. I would let it be.

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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by Laluna on Tue 11 Sep 2018, 1:05 pm

Thanks! I understand, then i did the right thing by removing the bullies. Is there anything you could do about bullying? I don’t understand why bullied mice are not defending thereselves, while they do so in other situations and even dare to fight. It looks like the bullying keeps going on because the bullied mouse is running away instead of stay. Always when they do stay the bullie seems to get confused and backs of without further atack.
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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by CallaLily on Tue 11 Sep 2018, 1:25 pm

Other than removing the bully into a “time out” where they are temporarily housed alone for a time, I’m not sure what else could be tried. Usually a time out helps a bully to remember they like having friends, so they start playing nice. But it sounds like you’ve tried that and just had new bullies step in?

I’m going to tag @scaredymouse and @Peachy to see if they have time to offer any advice on dealing with very dominant mice. It may just be a case of having too many alphas in one group?

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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by Laluna on Tue 11 Sep 2018, 1:59 pm

Yeah, when i removed the first bullie, he was replaced within hours by another bullie, after i removed the second bullie there appeared a third bully.. and after romoving the third one, guess what? The fourth came forward. And that’s when i placed the hole gtoup in a smaller tank. So 3 bullies are removed but never stayed alone in their tank. I have two primer bullies as well so i want to re-introduce 5 bullies. Just a few of them seems to be very dominant. The bullies were dominated by the matriarch Mopsie and she was keeping an eye on the bullying.She tried to prevent it by scare of the bullies when she heard commotion anywere. and it worked for a while, but it was exhausting for her and when she was sleeping or otherwise distrackted the bullies immediately took their change to bullie again, but they were clearly not the most dominant mice. It looked more like a game. 1 of the bullies liked to sneak up from behind and touching the matriarch so that she got angry and then the bullie ran away quickly.
Now they are living with 3 bullies together and everything is fine.
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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by Laluna on Tue 11 Sep 2018, 2:06 pm

And Yes, to many alphas could be the case indeed... and how intelligent a mouse must be that it oversees the fact that it had to life alone when it won’t stop bullying. It is aible to understand this cause effect. That’s very intelligent
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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by Peachy on Tue 11 Sep 2018, 10:49 pm

Hello Laluna!! Welcome to the forum. Mouse Wave I'd love some more information so I can get a better idea of what's happening with your mice! Hopefully we can sort through any problems.

Can you tell me more about how your mice are currently housed? How many groups, how many mice in each group? Ages, sizes, personalities and how they get along with each other. Where did you get them all?

Then I'd like to know when you first introduced them and how you introduced them. How long were they all together before you started removing bullies? What sort of bullying behavior made you decide to remove them?

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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by Laluna on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 7:43 am

Hi Peachy,

Thank you! It would be great if we can sort out some problens and i will give you the information. It’s quite a complicated story i think so i want to take enough time for explain everything clearly. I need to tell you the hole story from the beginning so i will do it this eveni g or tomorrow!
Thanks anyway for your support!
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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by MerciToujoursMaPetiteBoop on Wed 12 Sep 2018, 5:49 pm

Hallo muisje-persoon! Ik spreek maar beetje nederlands.

Just in case you had not already checked -- sometimes veterinary schools offer clinic services to the general public, so I looked up the Web site for Universiteit Utrecht because they have a veterinary school there. Er is inderdaad een Universiteitskliniek Voor Gezelschapsdieren, but it appears to have its focus in connection with the veterinary research hospital and to be available only by referral from your personal veterinarian. That could make things expensive. And I do not know if Utrecht is convenient for you anyway.

Perhaps you know of another vet school in the Netherlands. I looked up Utrecht because that is where "The Incredible Dr. Pol" got his degree -- and my Papa can just sit and watch hours and hours of Dr. Pol's show on the telly!

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Re: Looking for answers abroad

Post by Laluna on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 2:06 am

@Peachy wrote:Hello Laluna!! Welcome to the forum. [smiley]https://imgfast.net/users/3612/23/66/49/smiles/88757126.gif[/smiley] I'd love some more information so I can get a better idea of what's happening with your mice! Hopefully we can sort through any problems.

Can you tell me more about how your mice are currently housed? How many groups, how many mice in each group? Ages, sizes, personalities and how they get along with each other. Where did you get them all?

Then I'd like to know when you first introduced them and how you introduced them. How long were they all together before you started removing bullies? What sort of bullying behavior made you decide to remove them?

@peachy
Currently i have four groups of mice:

Group 1 is living in a temperarely tank wich is smaller than there regulary tank it contains 10 mice and now they get along pretty well
Those mice are living in group 1:

1. Mopsie of 8 months. She’s a mouse with an small-average size. I adopt her from a first owner that got her from a petstore. She is dominant (alpha type), defender but never causes blood, mediator, very active and driven but never a bully. She’ll accepting new mice within a few days unless they atack or irritate her. Mopsie has fighting a lot and got wounded many times (without infections). She also has destroyed earshells.
2 Moosje; came with mopsie from a petstore. Also 8 months. She is a big size mouse. And a bit of an omegatype. She’s not scared to defent herselfe and active, but she is a populair target for bullying. When they are bullying here she stands on two legs and showing her teeth or she runs away, Sometimes she bullies others, but never to mean. She likes grooming and being groomed and she always has a few favorit mice.
3&4 Twin sisters Mika &Maki from a petstore. 4 months old, came from a very bad line, 3 of their sisters developed multiple tumors while very young and are allready dead. Those two are left and are severely being bulliet. They are aible to fight but never defent themselves. When being bulliet they ran away sqeezing loudly and hiding for hours. (But they always had eachother)Though, they kept trying to life among the others, and they appeared to have a long breath. Finally they are pretty accepted. And still look and act healthy.
5. Youngest mouse, Lenno is still growing but allready has an average size. She came from a quality breeder. She’s also being bullied severely whem she was young. She went through a lot of stress because of the bullying. Finally she always bit me when i came near and she seemed to overgrooming herselfe. Fortunately after i removed the bullies, she developed normal and never bites me anymore. She is beginning to show some dominance.
6&7: Lima & Siam: two pretty sisters, small-average size, just a few months old from a quality breeder. Not dominant , neither being bullied (only Moosje does sometimes)
8,9,10: sisters Vito, Vikas and Damas: few months old. Average- big mice (almost as big as Moosje) came from a quality breeder who breeds also with wild mice because of microplasma (i don’t really understand but they are beautifull)
They all showing dominant signs. Damas has bullied the twinsisters for a while and vikas is actually bullying the twins a littlebit but also sleeps with them. Vito is recovering from an earinfecion and is very fast and bubbling. All three are loved by Mopsie and Moosje. Vikas and Moosje like to groome eachother.

Group 2: Mantas&mambo
Two sisters from a petstore. 4 months old. Both dominant types and like to fight and bullie. Mantas is the smallest mouse of all and Mambo slightly bigger. Mantas was introduced with the others a several time. Each time it ended bloody with other mice (especially mopsie and moosje) severely wounded. Mantas bullied Moosje always and fought with Mopsie. Though mopsie kept dominant, i removed mantas because if het agression. Sometimes she attacked mopsie in her sleep and when she began to fight blood flew directly. Mambo could be dominant and agressive too, though mantas is worse. Mantas and mopsie once got peace and were grooming eachother, though after moving in another tank mantas atacked mopsie again snd riped even a peace of flesh out of her arm. Mantas and mambo are living together now. Mantas overgroomed mambo for a while (thin fur on her face ) but since i got them a wheel it stoped. Mantas and mambo sometime producing almost male smells (though they are females)

Group 3
3 bullies removed from group 1 after severe bullying for weeks
Puma, Bongo and Aki: came from a quality breeder and are a few months old.
Aki is a sister of Siam and Lima and build average. She dominant and went bullying after removing Puma and Bongo. While living together with those two within the group: Aki attacked them sometimes (but never blood)
Bongo and Puma are sisters with a pretty big and strong build.
Puma is the biggest bullie of all. Kept bullying multiple mice (Moosje, Mika, Maki, Lenno, Siam, even try to scare and dare Mopsie) puma never did something else besides eating and sleeping. But she insn’t that of a hero, she dares to fight rarely and runs away when atacked. Puma likes to create trouble in the group. When everyone is calm and peaceful puma starts to create problems and manages to put everybody on the edge and then she went sleeping herselfe. It seems to be a game for her. She also like to rattle her tale to warn the others, especially when there’s nothing wrong.
Bongo is slightly more dominant then Puma and bullies also but more specific and has other things to do besides bullying. She’s fighting with Moosje a lot but still dominated by Mopsie, thouhg i think Bongo once is going to replace Mopsie.
Both respect Mopsie most of the time but when she has an asthma atack they immediately starting to irritate and dominate her.
Aki, puma and bongo living together now and it goes well.though Aki lookes a bit bored en not very active.

Group4: 3 mice that can’t live with the others.

I want to introduce group 2&3 to 1.
Before i tried it twice in a big tank full of toys and wood that’s allready being used by other mice (though cleaned)I left them together untill they started to fight with much blood (within a week) i removed bongo and puma and after two weeks introduced them again in a smaller tank with completely new suff and less toys. The didn’t fight that much but puna and bongo started to bullie. This took about a week and then it stoped finally but i made a mistake: the day after it stoped i removed them to the big tank full of smells and toys and the bullying started right away and never stoped.

How they bullied: as i told: lenno, mika, maki, moosje were being bullied the most bu constantly scaring them off. Sneaking up from behind whilst eating or something, chasing after them, tale biting and even grapping them above the tail, en preventing them from running away for a long time. They never lead them alone, were always there to jump on them. The bullied mice were not able to eat and drink properly and their tales were full of marks. Lenno started to bite me and the twins look thin, even in their hidings they got atacked sometimes, it took days without progress and the bullues even started to dare mopsie. One day she was inspecting a new toy, in the highest place in their tank and puma sneaked up from behind, jumped on Mopsie totally out of the blue) and together they feld 60 cm downwards and on the ground puma attacked mopsie (she was completely surprices and had no time to understand what was happening at sll) mopsie got wounded on her eye, arm, she couldn’t walk propely and on more places, she even looked a bit in shock. Puma had no wounds at all and was agressively waiting till crippled mopsie was returning from her hiding. Then i intervene again and removed bongo and puma, then Aki took their place so i removed her as well, then Vito and Vikas started to bullie and then i removed the hole group to another smaller tank with less toys. Then the group finally stabilised within hours. After a week i introduces puma, bongo and aki again and the bullied twins and moosje attacked them immediately, bongo fought back and wounded one of the twins. Puma went on bullying te same mice and i removed puma and bongo the same day. Aki took their place in again and wAs removed the day after.

I hope you have enough information. I have to stop now because i began to get exhausted of typing this story (lol). Hopefully it’s clear and if not: please ask me. Thank you very much in advance for helping me with this complicated story!


Last edited by Laluna on Sat 15 Sep 2018, 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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