Lice without scratching??

by Laluna Sat 06 Oct 2018, 2:30 pm

One of my mice ‘Maki’ is not doing well for weeks now. She eats very much and gane a lot of weight, she walks not normal, but slow like a duck. Her fur looks greecy, thinn and there are little balt spots on her bag. She never scratches herselfe. She came from a very bad pet store line, 3 of her sisters allready died so i thought: She would be the next. Last time she got more and more lethargic and fells a sleep while eating or drinking. I hold her in my hands for a while and saw white things in her fur. After i put her back i looked at my hands and a few tiny little moving creatures, where walking on my hands. They looked red and long and I recognized them as lice. I checked her again and now i saw them everywere! She must be infected for weeks i guess...
It never came into my sleepy mind that she could have lice! The breeder told me: when they have lice they get completely balt within 5 days and they are scratching al the time. Since Maki isn’t balt nor is scratching, i never expected lice, how stupid am i to take everything this breeder sayd for granted! I checked the group of mice she lived with, and more mice appear to have lice without scratching our other symptoms. I threated them immediately with ivermectine, but for Maki it’s too late i’m afraid. Yet she’s From a weak line and i suppose she has developed amenia from all those lice? The ivermectine treatment made her condition even worse, her body can’t produce it anymore. I found dead lice on her bag but still living lice on her belly. So they even continue taking her blood. I feel so guilty, how do i know there are lice when my mice are not scratching? How is it possible? How many times do i need to give them ivermectine before it ever goes away? What should i feed them to compensate the blood loss. More meat? Spinach? All tips and information are welcome! I allready red the information on this forum but i give them an other kind of ivermectine (Beaphar ivermectine 10 spot on) so do i follow the same instructions regarding the frequency ? Is it okay to treat 4 mice with 1 pipet of ivermectine 10? It’s way to many for just 1 mouse. How could this ivermectine not kill all lice instantely? Tanks in advance.

Btw: i called my vet but they told me they don’t know how to treat pet mice with paracites

by CallaLily Sun 07 Oct 2018, 8:56 am

For such a bad case that’s not responding to home treatment, I would take her to a veterinarian. If your usual vet isn’t sure how to treat, call around and ask other vets in the area. Here most vets would treat with Revolution (selamectin). It usually works where sometimes ivermectin doesn’t.

by Laluna Sun 07 Oct 2018, 9:55 am

Hi Callalily

Thanks for the answer. I saw also dead lice on her so it’s working till a certain point, i was wondering if it might take a few days before all lice are dead? i love my mice but i contact two different vets at least twice a weak, i have not the financial possibility to visit a vet also for just killing paracites, above all they don’t even know how. So that’s why i’m looking for infomation down here and when there is an emergency case (like every weak last time) i do visit my vet.

by CallaLily Sun 07 Oct 2018, 12:13 pm

Here’s what the forum page says on treating with ivermectin.

Treat the mouse once every 7 days for 3 weeks, cleaning the cage as described below before each treatment. After completing the 3 week course of ivermectin, discontinue the treatment for 2 weeks. After those 2 weeks have passed, repeat the treatment protocol once every 7 days for another 3 weeks.

Found here: https://www.petmousefanciers.com/t17-itching-hair-loss-and-parasites.

by Laluna Sun 07 Oct 2018, 1:34 pm

Thanks, i allready had found it and my question was: is this treatment the same for all kinds of ivermectine? The package of mine says it can be given again within at least 4 weeks, so that’s why i’m not sure if the treatment om this site is suitable. But 4 weeks seems very long though.
I think i have difficulty to make my questions clear, sorry therefore

by CallaLily Sun 07 Oct 2018, 2:32 pm

I can’t say for sure. I would assume the dilution is the same since what you have is sold specifically for pocket pets?? If so then it would be safe to dose the same way as the diluted cattle pour on. Sorry, they don’t sell the Beaphar spot on here so all I’ve had experience with is the cattle pour on that’s discussed in that thread.

by MerciToujoursMaPetiteBoop Sun 07 Oct 2018, 3:52 pm

As for what to feed an anemic mouse, in addition to trying to get her to eat normal well-nutritionally-rounded mouse chow I would say to use sunflower seeds, cooked scrambled egg, and spinach/kale. Iron, B vitamins, and protein.

Since the fiber in spinach/kale provides bulk without additional nutritional value, the juice of those vegetables might be more valuable than the full leaf, but then you'd have to convince mousie to either drink it or eat it mixed in with something else.

by Laluna Mon 08 Oct 2018, 7:01 am

@Callalily
Thanks to your last comment 1 desited to investigate the dose in beaphar in comparing to the one on this site and while doing so it made everything a hole lot more clear:
Dose on this site: 10 microgram ivermectin/1 drop
Beaphar: 10 microgram/ 10(!!) drops (the hole pipet) so you have to soke your mouse in the medication before giving the right dose! Since a had treated 4 mice with just 1 pipet (because it contains so much) in fact i gave them four times less then the prescribed dose. So it’s of course not working as it has to do. Yet i still had some other pipets in my kitchen closet with a higher dose; 25 microgram ivermectine /10 drups (1 ml)
so i calculated: they need 4 drops instead of 10 for the correct dose. I gave maki and some other mice an additional treatment of 2 drops and ordered more pipets with this higher dose to treat the others as well. Still, 4 drops is a lot fluid on a small mouse and much of the fluid sticks in their fur, so i doubt if it will be enough this time..
According to the package you may only retreat it after 4 weaks, but i live in the eu and safety standards are a lot strikter then abroad, so i’ll treat them and their tanks each week, like described on this site

@MerciToujoursMaPetiteBoop
Thanks for the advise. I gave her spinchleaves but i’ll buy some juice. I think maki will drink it. She liked the spinachleaves as well. I also can give her ectra iron. Can i use some tablets for human? How will i know the right dose for a mouse?
Maki’s ears and extremities were very pale and stiff last time (has this anything to do with the supposed anemic condition?)
But today those parts look slightly more pink. She also is less lethargic, i think she was almost dead but there seems to be some improvement. Though if she’ll survive it will be quite a miracle.

by MerciToujoursMaPetiteBoop Mon 08 Oct 2018, 8:13 am

Hi. It is good to hear that Maki's color is coming back and that she isn't as exhausted. Paleness (nose, ears, feet, tail) and extreme fatigue are two signs of anemia. In addition, anemia can cause weakness, sore joints, loss of appetite, lowered body temperature, and mental confusion.

I would not try iron supplements, or any other supplements, intended for humans on her. It could lead to an overdose of certain minerals or vitamins that might be dangerous to her health. Just sticking with foods she will eat (or drink) that will boost the iron, B vitamins, and protein is safer. If she's eating the spinach leaves, you don't need the juice -- although you can certainly give her a little, even mixed in with something else like a mixed-grain baby cereal powder or pulverized mouse chow to make a porridge or paste -- and then you can drink a little spinach juice for yourself! ¡Salud!

The extra protein is intended to provide the building blocks for her muscles as they recover from their temporary debilitation. Just a little extra goes a long way.

She must also eat her usual proper mouse food that is intended to provide all of her basic, normal nutritional needs. You wouldn't want to focus on adding iron and B vitamins, and then have her become deficient in magnesium, phosphorus, vitamin K, et cetera.

Another thing you might want to try, just to help her general gut health, is to let her have an occasional lick or two of yogurt with active cultures. Since goat milk is gentler on their tummies than cow milk, goat milk yogurt might be a preferable option, but cow milk yogurt (since it is fermented) doesn't seem to have any negative effect on mice when offered in such moderation.

Keep monitoring Maki for improvements in her overall health as you continue to treat her for the lice. Let us know how she is doing.

by Laluna Mon 08 Oct 2018, 8:42 am

@MerciToujoursMaPetiteBoop
Wow, thank you very much for the information. I was looking for information about anemic mice but had not found yet. I had no idea what caused the bad condition of Maki before i discovered the lice. And now i read your list of symptoms en it will discribe her condition perfectly, except for the loss of appatide . She’s eating much more then normal, especially in the early stages of her illness, later she got to weak to eat much, since she feld a sleep whilst eating all the time. Though she still tries to eat when she’s awake. So she does have appetite, doesn’t she? She became even quite fat on her belly. Her limps are thin and stiff, due to her weakness and disability to move well. I suppose i have to wait before i put her on a diet in order to loose weight, haven’t i?
I just bought chopped spinach, since there was no spinach juice without other ingredients.
I give her extra meat and her normal food. Thanks again your comment is very helpfull to me

by Laluna Wed 10 Oct 2018, 7:01 am

Hi,

An update about Maki:
She’s getting better everyday. She could’t move well due to the stiffness of her body but everyday she moves more quickly and shows more variations like standing on two feet and scratching her eye. She’s also grooming herselfe yet a little bit. Non of these movements were possible since she got ill. She becomes acting more like a mouse again; she walks away when i e
Want to pick her up. She reacts when she hears noises or smelling food and even seems a little bit curious again. I checked her body for lice and finally i found non .But still she’s far from normal and way too fat on her belly. I’m still worried there are some other health issues besides the anemia and lice.

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