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Trying different foods please send opinions

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Post by Yesimwater Sat 24 Oct 2020, 3:12 pm

I'm fairly certain this food was recently remade with new ingredients in 2020(online stock I don't believe has updated yet)
Ingredients:
Wheat, Oat Groats, Puffed Wheat, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Flaked Corn, Flaked Peas, Heat-Processed Soybeans, Corn Gluten Meal, Ground Corn, FlakedRed Soybeans, Peanuts, Sorghum, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Heat-Processed Barley, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Carob Beans, Ground Wheat, Calcium Carbonate, Ground Flax Seed, Ground White Millet, Ground Barley, Ground Sorghum, Dehydrated Carrots, Ground Brewers Rice, Ground Oat Groats, Dehydrated Dates, Corn Distillers Dried Grains with Solubles, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Vegetable Oil, Ground Buckwheat, Ground Spelt, Salt, L-Lysine, Wheat Germ Meal, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Bifidum Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Product, Torula Dried Yeast, Choline Chloride, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Chloride, Ground Chia Seeds, Ground Quinoa Seeds, Apple Pomace, Ground Banana, Ground Papaya, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Supplement, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (a preservative), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Carmine (color), Vitamin E Supplement, Fructooligosaccharide, Raspberry Powder, Strawberry Powder, Zinc Methionine Complex, Manganese Methionine Complex, Copper Lysine Complex, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Yeast Culture, Pot Marigold, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Biotin, Folic Acid, Menadione Nicotinamide Bisulfite, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Iron Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Ground Carrots, Ground Celery, Ground Beets, Ground Parsley, Ground Lettuce, Ground Watercress, Ground Spinach, Cobalt Sulfate, Citric Acid (a preservative), Ascorbic Acid (a preservative), Sodium Selenite, Rosemary Extract


Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min) 16%
Crude Fat (min) 4%
Crude Fiber (max) 10%
Moisture (max) 12%
Calcium (min) 0.6%
Calcium (max) 1.1%
Phosphorus (min) 0.3%
Vitamin A (min) 9,000 IU/kg
Vitamin D3 (min) 1,000 IU/kg
Vitamin E (min) 75 IU/kg
Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.5%
Total Microorganisms (min) 50,000 CFU/g (L. acidophilus, L. casei, E. faecium, B. bifidum, A. oryzae).
Contains a source of live (viable) naturally occurring microorganisms.

It seems to be working well, I am a new mouse owner so if you have anything to point out about the food please inform me, I'm not to pleased it has alfalfa meal as the fourth ingredient as I've heard that isn't good for mice.

I'm pairing it with Vitakraft Vitasmart complete nutrition parakeet food which as you all know is pretty popular, I'm not happy with the colorful pieces but I can't have everything.

I do give them a block or two of mazuri when I feed them as well, this was a main part of their diet until I realized corn was a second ingredient and it was making my mice's feces wet and weird.

Please tell me what I can change!
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Post by Honey102019 Wed 23 Dec 2020, 11:04 pm

I would try https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/Supreme Selective Diets Rat and Mouse Food instead of Mazuri.  

Mazuri contains corn.  I was feeding my mice Mazuri and Oxbow Essentials for years until someone mentioned that corn may have a connection to obesity and cancer.  

I switched to Supreme Selective in October 2019.  Before that time, most of my mice were overweight and died of either cancer or old age.  I've lost 9 mice since then and only one had cancer and all of the mice were/are lean.  The mouse I lost to cancer was also fed Kaytee before she was under my care.  I rescue a lot of mice just in case anyone is wondering why I lost 9 mice.

Another option is Oxbow Garden Select Mouse and Young Rat Food, not to be confused with Oxbow Essentials.

I'd also pull any dried corn, sunflower seeds, and peanuts out if you see them in a mix.
I toss the dried corn or feed it to squirrels.  I keep the sunflower seeds and peanuts and give them as treats.  Seeds and nuts high in fat are not ideal for a mouse's daily diet.

I hope this helps.
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Post by Robin~ Thu 24 Dec 2020, 7:00 am

Wait, what in the world? Are we genuinely agreeing corn causes cancer? You do realize literally everything has carcinogenic properties, no? Sorry if this comes across as a bit blunt, but at least to my knowledge the main reason Mazuri isn’t recommended is because it’s crazy high in protein, not because it has a common ingredient that’s technically a carcinogen.
It is also extremely difficult to pin cancer-causing agents in feeder/pet shop mice as it’s so common. There is a relatively high chance the reasons why your previous mice got cancer is completely unrelated to having corn in their diet and is purely coincidence.

Also, nothing should ever be pulled out of the mix as it will alter the GA, which could be dangerous. As long as your mix isn’t excessively high in fat, your mouse will not get fat just because they’re eating sunflower seeds and peanuts. Mice are actually very adapted to eat foods high in fat these due to their high metabolisms, and in natural mixes often times high fat seeds will make up nearly 20% of the overall mix.


OP, could you list the name of the main food you’re using? I have a list of foods that I use for reference and it’d be easier to find it along with my commentary if the name was given. Smile Thanks!

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Post by Yesimwater Thu 24 Dec 2020, 3:41 pm

Hi! This food is Vitakraft Vitasmart complete nutrition mouse rat and gerbil food, it was paired in a 50/50 mix(weight wise not cups or anything) with Vitakraft Vitasmart complete nutrition parakeet food(I'll most likely be switching to vita prima sunseed parakeet because I'd prefer to shop at petco than petsmart), although I'm currently making a switch to Vitaprima sunseed dwarf mix as it has a much less alfalfa than the Vitakraft mouse mix from what I can physically see in the package. The mix of the two appeared to work all right as feces stopped being wet and smelly although I'm not a expert when it comes to nutrition so I definitely can't say for certain.

I'd love advice when it comes to diet as I've been struggling in this area for a while and haven't been able to find a food I'm completely happy with Smile thank you in advance for any help!
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Post by River Fri 25 Dec 2020, 12:52 am

The study linking genetically modified corn to tumors was retracted because it was done using an already tumor-prone strain of rats in small numbers. It had already gotten into people's heads by that point, though, so it's understandable that many still think it's proven. All in all, though, the study was poorly done and no real conclusions could be reached.

If you choose to avoid it that's cool too. I personally don't think it matters much either way, but time will tell.

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Post by Honey102019 Fri 25 Dec 2020, 3:50 am

Thanks for pointing that out about the study.  

I agree with the misinformation regarding it.  Two Thumbs   I came across it after a wellness vet suggested I try a corn free pellet to help manage the weight of my obese mice.  

The vet pointed out the cancer connection.  I wasn't looking to reduce exposure to carcinogens then.  I figured cancer just comes with keeping mice.  Like you said, pet shop and feeder mice are prone to cancer.  They're from untraced lines where inbreeding is frequent and the living conditions are sub-optimal at best.

However, I can't deny the fact I had no occurrence of cancer except for one mouse after I switched to a corn free pellet.  This is after keeping and caring for over 100 mice in more than 6 years.  Sure, it could have been a coincidence.  But, when you notice your cancer rates drop like that, it's hard to ignore.  

Corn is used as a filler in cattle feed to fatten up cows quickly and make the meat more tender.  This is also the reason why beef from grass fed cows is much leaner and a more healthful choice for those who consume red meat.  Giving my mice a more healthful choice is the reason why I stick with a corn free pellet.

I remove corn, sunflower seeds, and peanuts from my store bought mixes because they can contain mycotxins.  It depends on how long these items were sitting in grain stores, if they were exposed to moisture or drought, and how long the packaged final product sat in a distribution warehouse.  

Aflatoxin, the mycotoxin found on corn, is a known carcinogen.  Now, I'm not saying this to suggest that corn causes cancer.  What I'm saying is that there is a risk you may end up with a bag that contains old/fungi covered corn.  Since pet/feeder mice have a genetic predisposition to cancer, it would seem to make sense to remove items from their diet that are high risk.  

In my opinion, I believe dried corn kernels in seed mixes fall into that category.  Again, that's my opinion.  And like you pointed out, carcinogens are everywhere. Where do you draw the line between prevention and paranoia?  Like a former boss of mine used to say "If you eat or drink enough of anything it's gonna kill you... eventually".

I agree that removing items from a mix is dangerous unless you also provide a fortified pellet...which I do.  I provide a mix as a supplement to offer variety... not as the main diet for my mice.  I set aside the sunflower seeds and the peanuts to give as treats so they do not over indulge.  The Safe Foods list on this forum lists both peanuts and sunflower seeds as food items that should be offered rarely.  

Here are some links on mycotoxins if anyone is curious...

World Health Organzioation - Mycotoxins - Key Facts

This article was written by the award winning Pet Nutrition blogger, Rodney Habib.
While it focuses on dog food, it's still an interesting and entertaining read... and it's less than a year old so the information isn't antiquated...

Corn and Dog Food:  Aflatoxins and Mycotoxins

I'm simply sharing my own observations and what I've learned from researching subjects that I am curious about.  Bottom line, the switch in pellets made a huge difference in the health of my mice.  Maybe what I've learned can help someone else.

I hope that clarifies things. Ear wiggle   Merry Christmas, by the way!
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Post by River Fri 25 Dec 2020, 8:13 pm

I think that's totally fair!! The study was after all just inconclusive -- meaning it didn't prove anything either way, and it's still possible that there is a connection. Only time will tell. If you have a good thing going, don't change it! Glad to hear your mice are doing well.

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Post by ShiruSenpai Fri 19 Feb 2021, 3:29 am

So, acouding the whole corn causes cancer discussion, I would like to suggest feeding your mice something that has the potential to slow cancer down and in some cases even prevent tumors: Common Purslane. It's also know as hogweed and other names. I would suggest looking into the studies behind purslane before you take my word for it. Purslane grows like a weed, you can most likely find it in your garden. I've been cultivating it and putting it in salad for years. In 2019 I started feeding my own two mice fresh purslane along with their oat, millet, flax seed and occasional sunflower seed diet. My mice love purslane. For a full year I've had them eating purslane.
One of my mice, May, had a disability in her front legs. The vet told me that she would most likely die in the next two weeks. She died exactly a year after she was no longer able to use her legs. I can't prove it but I think the purslane diet is what kept her strong. April, her sister, is still alive although she has a lump on her chest. Turns out the lump had been cancerous but isn't any longer. Again, I can't prove it but I want to attribute her health to her diet.
Try feeding your mice purslane, let me know if they like it.

Regards

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Post by Dee67 Wed 24 Feb 2021, 10:03 pm

Interesting, I know Purslane is a great thing to eat for humans. I try to recognise it because if you're ever lost in the woods, or food becomes scarce, or whatever apocalyptic scenario I can come up with, I read that you can survive on this edible green. And mushrooms!

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