3 mice, 3 different tanks

by peas Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:18 pm

I posted in more detail at the other site but my 3 girls are now in 3 different tanks.

Endless fighting and they just refuse to get along. So now i got 2 girls that have proven they cannot get along with any other mouse and the poor third that is sweet and probably could get along with anybody but i have no more room.

So at 4 months old, they're all going to be loners. Maybe if the mean ones die i could try and get the good one some friends. Other than being anti-social towards other mice, they are good mice. They are super friendly and listen well, one of them is even really vocal. She squeaks at me all the time and if i squeak at her, she'll squeak back! It's funny to think she's thinking "you're not making any sense!" when i am squeaking at her. She seems to be the most lonely without any cagemates which is ironic because she is the meanest of the bunch, or maybe it makes sense, since she was the queen and she's lost her slaves. The most bullied one is the happiest to be alone and is much happier now that she is alone.

I am a bit annoyed with this situation. I got girls this time around because i wanted to have a nice happy colony of girls interacting with eachother. Now i have 3 mice in 3 different cages all requiring my attention. My last females never really had this problem, the odd fight here or there but it was the odd fight. These ones will fight non stop until someone is wedged against the top of the water bottle all night long refusing to come down even for a treat.

So i had about 2 weeks of happy mice getting along before the fighting started and just got worse and worse and worse. Has anyone ever had this happen before? This is only my second group of girls. I had never seen non stop sustained fighting like that before.

by MouseLover Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:29 pm

Hi Peas. I have two questions for you.

#1: Are you 100% sure these are all girls? If you're not sure, maybe try placing them in a clear container and looking from underneath. You could even take pictures and post them here. There might be someone who can help determine the sex.

#2: When you say fighting, is it just squeaking and chasing? Or is there blood involved?

It would be a real shame for your girls to live a life of solitude. Girls hate to be alone, so if there's any way you can figure a way for them to live happily together, it needs to be done.

by peas Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:41 pm

They are girls.

And there is no blood. Just sad defeated mice, terrorized to the point that they have chosen to live on top their water bottle refusing to come down to eat. Certainly never trying to run on their wheel. Sleeping on top of a water bottle, all night. I honestly think they might of starved to death rather than come down and risk getting attacked, for the 10000th time.

After you've watched a mouse try and drink upside down hanging from the water tube, rather than risk putting her feet on the floor for a split second, even though no one is around, it's kind of time to fold up shop.

by CinnamonPearl Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:46 pm

This really does sound like they are boys. This sort of fighting is extremely uncommon in girls but all too uncommon in boys. Please post pictures of each of their genitalia so we can help sex them for you. Then we can discuss a plan of action. Because if they really are all girls, there's no way around it- they will ALL need friends. If they're boys, then you're all set now that they're separated. Get some pictures for us so we can help.

by peas Mon 25 Apr 2016, 7:23 pm

They're girls. They've been sexed. By me, by the people at the pet store and by the people that supply the pet store. And by me, a few more times as i worried they were boys by their fighting so i double and triple checked.

They terrorized each other after having been cage mates. They terrorized each other, when they both had a docile compliant little cage mate and they terrorized each other when they had someone fighting back. I tried different combinations and they won't get along. There is no way i am bringing in new mice to be terrorized by those two little monsters, i have no more room for new cages to house their new victims in. And the one good one, she is happy alone. It's been non stop sparking now that her cage mates are gone.

It sucks that they are happier when they are beating on another mouse, one of them literally would spark like mad after attacking her cage mate, no joke, but i am not crazy enough to think they are going to get along with random new mice when they've progressively turned on each other after having grown up together.

I can imagine it is rare for girls to act like this. That's the story of my life. I have some rare gene that like one in a million people have. I have some other rare syndrome that like one in a million people have, I have one rare syndrome and one rare gene that have nothing to do with eachother. It's not like the gene causes the syndrome or vice versa, it's just two very rare things that i have because reasons!! There might be like 10000 people on the dagnabbit planet that have both, It's not at all surprsing to me that i have some weirdo aggressive mice, that are super friendly towards me but don't like each other, except the one good one. It would be more odd if i had normal mice. lol

There's no need for pictures. If they are boys, which they are not, they are staying in their own bins. If they are girls, which they are, they are anti-social and are staying in their own bins. If something happens and the two mean ones get sick, i will get the good one some buddies but the two mean ones are not getting buddies obviously. They'll have to make due with face massages and lots of toys. They were both sparking today so they're doing good so far on their own. It's been about 10 days since they've all be on their own.

by CinnamonPearl Mon 25 Apr 2016, 7:34 pm

See, the thing about pet store employees is that they are notorious for being wrong. These people have no idea what they are doing and dish out wrong information like it's their job. I really think you should have all of your mice properly sexed by our experts here. Even if they aren't all boys or all girls, you could have two boys and one girl, which is a problem in itself.

The thing about girls is that without friends, they will get depressed and can even die of broken hearts. For girls, being alone is a dangerous and life threatening scenario. They might all be sparking now, but in no time, they could all be in a downward spiral. It's not fair to the girls to keep them in solitary confinement when they simply just don't get along with one other mouse in the world. Sometimes girls don't get along with each other. It's rare, but it happens, but it doesn't mean that they are one in a million ladies who can do fine on their own. Girls need companionship. At least the one who isn't fighting will need companionship. That's why you should have them properly sexed by our experts here. We can let you know if you need to be worrying about getting your girls friends they enjoy and get along with or if it's not a necessity.

by scaredymouse Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:09 pm

There are a lot of reasons why female mice might not get along. I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on female colony dynamics. And while it's true females are happiest in groups of three, where they have friends because they are very social animals. However, although rare, some female just don't get along. I think it has more to do with how we put them together. In the wild, they can choose their roommates, but we make those choices for them.

I'm going to hold off on the "females need friends" lecture. Clearly you know that. You will need to spend a lot of time with them so they don't get depressed. Just because they don't get along with your other mice, doesn't mean that they still don't miss having a colony.

Out of curiosity, how old are your girls? And did you get them at the same time or did you get them from different places and try to form a colony that way?

by CallaLily Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:58 pm

I've had my share of females fighting (with blood being drawn - even with following all the intro advice), but thankfully each time I was able to at the very least get them into separate groups of two. Thankfully I didn't end up with lone females for too long. This most recent group of mine took quite some time but I finally got all of them together. But like Scaredy said, some just don't get along. I don't really have any advice, just wanted to let you know you weren't the only one to have a few difficult girls.

Have you read over the article on introductions? http://petmousefanciers.forumotion.com/t39-introducing-mice

by peas Tue 26 Apr 2016, 1:51 pm

They all came from the same tank in the pet store. They were together for a week in that tank before i bought them. 8-9 weeks old when i got them, they're now 16-17 weeks old.

The two mean ones, especially Thutty, will never get along with anyone. It's going to be hard for them to have cage mates, if they won't ever let their cage mates eat or drink.

The part of it that makes it the most telling, is that they did get along sort of for the first few weeks. It just gradually got worse and worse. The more comfortable they got with their living situation, the meaner they got. They just didn't fight in the tanks either, neutral ground, treats no treats, didn't matter. And it wasn't normal two mice sniffing eachother then fighting stuff either.....it was more like, the moment one saw the other she froze in terror and began wildly squeaking the moment she was approached and then the fighting started, always one sided. No blood but missing fur and it's not hard to imagine blood wasn't far behind.

I watched Nutty, attack her cage mate on many different occasions and spark like she had just won the lottery right after. Like i am giving her another mouse to abuse. And it's not like i can just return them to the store. I have 3 mice, that's the limit. I am not going to risk bringing in another mouse, just to have to set up a fourth cage and a fifth.

Playground intros quickly turned into battle ground intros within about 20 seconds.

There's really no point in trying again, when the reaction to seeing each other is sheer terror. They don't sniff and wander around each other, they freeze and then scurry away to the nearest corner at top speed with the other in pursuit. After 5 days of being a part, they didn't forget about each other when they were re-introduced, they were horrified to see their "friend" again.

If they would go an hour without fighting i would think there was hope. 30 minutes maybe even. They don't go 30 minutes without fighting and now after having been seperated they don't go 30 seconds without fighting. It's just not right to let one mouse be abused by another in the hope that maybe the abuse will stop and they'll get along. It wasn't normal female hierarchy stuff, there was a weird sadistic element to it where they couldn't stand to have their cage mates anywhere in the same bin as them except hiding on the roof.

I am just back from the store, i got a bunch more stuff to build them toys and treats for the meanest one Thutty cause she seems to not like the new situation as much. The other two are running and sparking and seem just as happy as ever. They are wheel mice so i can see why they don't care as much. Thutty isn't really too big on the wheel so i got her some special treats i will hide for her to find in challenging places.

by CallaLily Tue 26 Apr 2016, 2:10 pm

Ultimately it's up to you, of course. They're your mice and you know them best. Very Happy

I just wanted to point out that yes, a lot of what you described is exactly what I have experienced except with blood. I've had a mouse kept from eating - but in my case putting her alone with the girl that was "nicest" to her worked for me. I've had girls "scream" and run at the sight of another, which led to chase and fighting. Seren would often spark happily after bullying and beating another girl - though I read it more as a mouse who loved what she considered to be her "job." There were many times I thought about giving up....and times that I did just that (gave up on that complete group). Like I said though I was lucky in that none of mine had to be completely isolated in the end. I'm not saying this to try to convince you of anything. Just wanted you to know that what you're describing isn't completely unheard of. Smile

by Norman's Mom Wed 27 Apr 2016, 3:29 pm

How big was the tank they originally inhabited? (Length X Width), and how did you introduce them to that environment? What is your routine for playing with them? What *exactly* are the kinds of toys you gave them?

I know you said you sexed them - But seriously - I'd get them into a Veterinarian and have them for-sure-for-sure sex them all if you won't post pictures here. This is a truly, beyond-odd, and very, very rare situation.

by MouseLover Wed 27 Apr 2016, 5:24 pm

Is there absolutely no way you'd consider getting your "good one" a friend?
I can understand why you don't want to risk it with the "mean ones", but if she wasn't the aggressor then surely there's a good chance she can get on with others?

I know I'm repeating myself here, but if you post pictures on here, someone experienced can tell you their sex. This really is the first step in getting to the bottom of this, because (as Norman's Mom says) this is pretty unusual.

by Peachy Wed 27 Apr 2016, 6:17 pm

Peas has said that she's had girls before, and that before these girls she had had boys for years... So she probably knows the difference. Razz

The only time I had to have three girls in three separate cages was before my first introduction. We tried again after a few weeks, and though it still started out a little rough, the two that were left (one passed in those few weeks apart) eventually got along. It took a few days of putting them together and sending them back home before they got used to each other enough to stay together, though.
If no one has any suggestions that turn out to be useful, maybe you could try introductions again later? Maybe they'll be over having the place(s) to themselves and missing their friends enough to finally work it out.

by MouseLover Wed 27 Apr 2016, 6:59 pm

I don't mean to insult Peas' intelligence lol Laughing

Just thought it might be worth triple-checking as it would explain everything, and would be easy enough to do with a few pictures Smile

by peas Thu 28 Apr 2016, 2:21 pm

Peas is a hes! Razz

Boy human, girl mice.

This isn't a problem that needs to be solved. It is solved and they're happy enough with the resolution. The attempts at biting my hands if i smell like their former friends are telling me they aren't looking for re-unification. The good one tried to bite me yesterday, though it was kind of funny and seemed as though as she had never bitten anything in her life before and wasn't sure how to do it. It was so slow and deliberate that it took me awhile to figure out she was biting me! lol She seemed almost shocked that she did bite someone! It was really cute and probably shouldn't even be counted as a bite more like she pressed her teeth against me. I have the feeling she would of written a strongly worded letter if that option was available to her instead.

They now have the original 10 gallon tank, that the "good one" is in. She's not even the good one, she's the good one in relatation to how she interacts with the others. She's actually the bad one as she doesn't listen as well as the other two. I still haven't named her. Thutty (the baddest one) and Nutty have a 20 gallon and a 30 gallon plastic bin set up. They're enjoying the space and aren't being weird about having too much room.

Toys, just mad creations out of carboard, paper, toilet paper and popsicle sticks.

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